FYI, I just put up the most recent version of this document that I have on file in honor of the upcoming track season. Feel free to check it out!
http://therealtrain.blogspot.com/p/pa-all-time-list.html
Also on the off chance someone came here looking for a Nike Cross Nationals Live Stream, you can watch right here: http://cdn.runnerspace.com/nxnlive.html
Train, awesome job. Mad respect for all the work this must take.
ReplyDeleteQuestion about the 4x8: why does it seem like a lot of the top teams put their 2nd fastest guy at the #2 spot? Is there a strategy behind this?
Thanks man, I'm glad you like the list. I find 4x8 orders one of the most fascinating things in track and field (nerd alert). I have a general theory on the strategy you mention but would also be interested to hear other's opinions. I think a lot of teams don't like to lead off their best or second best guy outdoors because of the traffic. There's a lot of jostling and you can't get a running start so you don't get to fully take advantage of a guy's speed. Then you put your second best guy next in the order so that, now that he has space, he can get the team in a good position for the back half of the relay, especially the third leg (many times the weakest). I think a lot of coach's probably think the 2nd leg is where things can get away from you, so you need a reliable runner to help keep things steady.
DeleteThere's actually a decent amount of instances where teams have run their best guy at the #2 spot and had strong success. CB West did it a couple times last year with Fortna and Pennsbury actually did it two years ago at Penn Relays with Sauer in a very cool race.
If I remember/there's interest, I'll put together a more lengthy detailed post on my opinions on order strategy once we get to relay season. I think I've seen just about every combination in the book at some point or another.
I feel like train's point about not putting your #1 or #2 as leadoff depends on just HOW good your top guy is. If your top runner is in the elite, elite tier, like a Sauer, or a Magaha, or Willig, or Lewis, then you can trust them to get you as far away from that traffic as possible. But to what Train is referencing, unless you have a leg like that, who is head and shoulders above the field, you're only putting your top guy at risk of the jostling and traffic that happens at the start of a 4x8. There really is so much that goes into the logistics of ordering your 4x8, and I'm fascinated by it, so I guess you aren't the only nerd Train
DeleteI'm curious if you've seen cases where teams lead off their top guy.
DeleteMany of the best teams I've seen choose to run their #2 guy second and anchor their #1, although I've also seen teams run their best second or third. 2009 Albemarle even had a 1:50 #2 guy and still chose to run him second instead of lead off (at least at Penn Relays). CB South and Morris Hills in the same year also followed that pattern. I'm not that familiar with the Long Beach Poly record setting team but at least in their record run they also had the second fastest split come out of their second leg.
Another reason I've always thought that teams don't want to lead off someone in the low 1:50s' or high 1:40's is that would then force the rest of the team to basically time trial the race. It can put a lot of pressure on the anchor to actually use the lead properly, especially if there is another sub 1:50 guy in the field anchoring for some other team.
I know the 4x8 and DMR are very different, but Great Valley was notorious for putting Ned Willig on their 1200 leg, which proved to be very effective for them.
DeleteAlso, to your point about the anchor holding off strong guys, we saw R. James hold off the likes of Dahl last indoor states when Morro led off for O'hara
DeleteR James didn't hold off Dahl; Dahl didn't chase him at all. Milligan and Dahl jogged for 4 laps while James grew his lead. If Dahl and Milligan were fresh and hunting, it might've been a different story.
DeleteDahl and Milligan raced for second which really helped O'Hara, but to James' credit, he went out in 60 flat to make the boys hunting him feel as though they had already lost it. Pretty aggressive and respectable for a guy like James who hadn't broken 4:25 before that day.
DeleteI'm a little late to this party, but I will say that 1) DMR and 4x8 are different animals and 2) indoors and outdoors are different animals. As for lead off guys being a team's #1 I've rarely seen this. But Penn Wood has done at least a version of this recently with Dennis Manyeah. GFS did it indoors last year with Dahl but it's debatable if Dahl or Hepp was their #1 pre race. Those immediately jump to mind but not a ton of others.
DeleteGreat job on the list. Pretty interesting if you XC Score the list. 5 scorers for each school:
ReplyDelete800-Wissahickon-406
North Penn-410
State College-468
Henderson-657
O'Hara-694
1600 State College-353
Henderson-378
O'Hara-476
CRN-507
LaSalle-560
Hatboro Horsham-587
3200
North Hiils-317
Hatboro-351
NA-352
Henderson-382
Unionville-411
CRN-449
NP-579
In the 4 x 8 only NP, SC and CBW had 5 teams on the list. Cumberland Valley had 4 and Henderson has 3.
This is pretty interesting. Mostly teams you would expect up there but some surprises as well. I wonder how different it would look (if at all) if we looked at last 10 years only or some recent block. How many teams could even qualify in that short of a span?
DeleteAnd of course the "who wins in an all-time 4x8, DMR, 4x16 etc" always intrigues me
Delete