By Jarrett
Felix
Shout
out to the readers. You guys are really what make this thing go. So I wanted to
make this little mid-week recap a bit more interactive. Here are some questions
for you that hopefully you would will want to discuss.
Question 1: PA’s Greatest Range
In the
past week, Ryan Thrush of Brookville has raced the 55m, 400m, 800m and the
3,000m. After running 1:52 and 48 a year ago in his best two events, the state
champion isn’t resting on his laurels during his senior season. He finished 4th
in the A XC State Meet this past fall and is setting himself up to be
competitive in a variety of events this winter.
So my
question for you guys is, who has Pennsylvania’s best range across all events?
Who could do the most events successfully? Feel free to go current, recent or
all-time with this one. Some of the writers discussed it together and some
names we came up with from recent years (in addition to Thrush) included Zach
Brehm, Jaxon Hoey, Drew Magaha and Matt Wisner. Let us know who you got!
Question 2: XC Season Continues
I feel
like I didn’t give this quite enough play last weekend, but Noah Affolder pulled
out an impressive win overseas at Edinburgh. He beat one of the top preps from both
national meets (Seth Hirsch) and one of the best freshman in the NCAA last
season (Connor Lundy, an old NY rival for Noah) en route to the impressive
victory. Not sure PA has ever had a high schooler who has won this caliber of a
race on a national or international stage.
So my
question for the readers, what cross country performance that you have
witnessed has been most impressive? Feel free to get creative.
Question 3: The 4x800m
Last
night at the Millrose Games Trials, Pennsbury moved into the PA #1 spot in the
4x800 with an 8:03 clocking. With that result, the top 3 teams and 5 of the top
6 overall in the 4x8 are recent state champions. Pennsbury won the title both
indoors and out in 2015. The other top teams include CB West (2011 Champs),
Abington (2010), Bensalem (2013) and North Penn (most recently 2008). Worth noting,
CB East is the top 6 team that gets left out. They were second in 2008.
So, on
the heels of an AMFAR post about the original 4x8 Dynasty, which school do you associate most with the 4x8? Is there a program that is best at developing
talent or is there a program that just focuses all of its energy on creating a
strong 4x8? Let’s hear your thoughts.
Question 4: 1st Time
Medalists
At the
Armory last night, we also saw an impressive mile performance from Owen J
Roberts Junior Liam Conway, who ran 4:23 in the mile to move to #4 in the
state, just ahead of Brandon Hontz of WC Rustin. Speaking of Hontz, the WC
Rustin senior ran 1:58 at Ursinus to win the Ches Co Meet by almost 4 seconds
of DT West’s Chase Semanyk. I believe that puts Hontz at #6 in the state indoor
rankings.
Now I
may be forgetting something, but I believe neither Hontz nor Conway has earned
a state medal yet for either Cross Country or Track despite some incredible
performances in both seasons throughout their careers. So my question is, which
runners do you think will earn their first state medals this indoor season?
Which runners are you most rooting for to win their first state medals?
So let’s
hear what you kids have to say.
While he's not a pure distance guy, John Lewis from Cheltenham '15 had awesome range from the sprints up to the 800. He apparently had a 46 split on the 4x4 at Penn and ran 1:48 at states. Plus, he ran a 52.4 in the 400h. He probably was the top athlete at all events in the state from 200m (even though he never really ran it) to 800m, including the intermediate hurdles. He also was a key leg on a few of Cheltenham's national caliber relays. Look for him to do big things this your at Clemson.
ReplyDeleteThis is an awesome one
Delete1. Brophy
ReplyDelete3. Abington
4. I was gonna say Kamil Jihad but I think he got an outdoor 800 silver
Greatest range is a tough one. Most of the top guys could have put down some great times in any event from the 400-5000 if they focused on each distance. But most had a favorite race so they didn’t cover the whole gamut. I really only know the recent guys and I’m going on memory with these times so don’t bash me if I’m way off. And it’s not picking the best, it’s just best range.
ReplyDeleteMagaha from the then state record 800 at 1:48.8 to the AAA record 1600 of 4:07 was probably top in that combo. (not counting Vandergrift)
Sam Ritz is like Magaha, he had great 800 and 1600 and probably could have thrown down some terrific 400 or 3200's if that that was his focus, but it wasn’t.
Russell went from Chesmont champ 1:54 800, to 4:09 1600, 8:58 state silver 3200 and 14:59 Lehigh 5000, that’s some pretty solid range with a lot of medals along the way.
John Lewis with his state record 800 in 1:48.1 makes him a distance guy, then 47-400, 22 something 200, and 300 and 400 hurdles, he probably had a state caliber long jump too. That guy had incredible range but it was in the wrong direction for this distance oriented blog.
Brehm had 3 state golds, 800, 1600 and 3200 which is absolutely amazing. 1:53, 4:09 to 8:55. That 3200 state gold was an unbelievable race.
All these guys have times in the all-time elite status, but if we factor in state medals I’d have to go with Jaxon Hoey with the greatest range. That guy went from probably sub 50-400 split to 1:51 800, 4:06/7 1600 (from converted 1500) to 15:12 at Lehigh. Along the way he had I think 2 state golds in the 4x400, one in the outdoor 1600, one in the indoor mile, a bronze 800 and a silver XC 5000. This in 1.5 years since he was in the Independent league before that. I know he benefited from having 46-400 McLemore on that 4x400 but that doesn’t change that he focused on that event and earned the medals with the team. The only thing he was missing was a stellar 3200 time but he has it on everyone from 400-5000 results.
- RJJL
Even without the 4x400 it's probably Hoey from 800-5000 with 1:51 - 15:13. Magaha was 1:48-15:16 but Hoey had more medals at bigger meets especially states XC.
Delete9:05 3200 as a soph isn't stellar?
DeleteSo i think i'm going to end up going back too far in terms of history for some of these questions, but in my 'recent' memory here are my top 3 runners in terms of range:
ReplyDelete1) Wade Endress. Wade tripled a 4:13 Mile, 1:51 800, and 48/49 split for Altoona indoors his senior year. That's a crazy strong triple!!! Wade also placed second in one of the most front loaded XC state meets of his era beating out future FL finalists Chris Campbell and Zach Hebda (and right behind the winner Ryan Gil who had gone to FL as a junior). Endless went on himself to place 5th at Nike Regionals and competed at Nike Nationals placing around 60th if my memory serves me correctly. Had Endress not suffered a major injury outdoors he could have doubled a 4:09/1:49 imo at the state meet. He had the best of everything going for him that senior year. His 400 speed was great and he could have split 47 fresh no doubt.
2. Magaha. His 1:48.84 a few weeks into training after having Mono and his 4:07 junior year plus a district title in 15:16 and a top 10 finish in XC show just how talented this kid is. I'm not sure if the race video exists anywhere, but indoors Magaha off of almost no training and a season with devastating mono split 48.0 on the 4x8 for his team and collapses into a ball immediately after handing off the baton. It was an incredible race to watch live. The kid had such guts and blacked out the final 50m of his 1:48.84 at the Abington Invitational. He had range, but I place him second because I think that Endress would have handled him easily in the 3k and 5k and they were fairly even in the 400. My guess is Endress could have run mid to low 8:30s for 3k in HS that indoor season.
Brehm. Really hard to put this kid in 3rd place tbh. His triples of the 800, 1600, and 3200 (well quadruple really bc he had to qualify in the 800) at the District 3 meets his junior and senior year were absolutely astonishing. His kick to break Wilsons 3200m state record was brilliantly run and he was generally a work horse. I don't think he has the 400m chops of the two above him (never had that raw speed), but remember he did win the 800m title as a sophomore and out of the 3 he's the only one to win an 800m, Mile, and 3k/3200m title. He was really solid in XC with a top 10 finish his senior year, but again I think Endress has a wider range than he does, but Brehm is another extremely special person.
(i think Jaxon Hoey is a close 4th here as well).
As for the second question, i personally think Noah's recent accomplishment at this international stage is phenomena. I think that Brophy beating Russell was one of the most impressive individual races we had seen in years (since 2011 when Gil grabbed the title after being injured all season and doing aqua jogging). That being said, i'm going to be an old fart again and a fan of my old school. I'm so impressed with Noah Affolders performance that i'm going to compare it with the Footlocker Nationals Race of 1999 when Council Rock's own Danny Coval placed 7th place. He was beaten by 5 runners who would become multi-time All-Americans and two who would go on to become olympians. Also in this race was Alan Webb who was a junior at the time and placed 8th overall (for those who don't know Alan Webb is the current HS and American mile record holder at 3:53 and 3:43 respectively). you can watch the race here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbsAC1n-AC0
Alex Milligan's range was pretty considerable.
Delete200- 23.
400- 49. (split)
800- 1:52.1 (split)
1600- 4:10
3200, couldn't tell ya
5k XC- 15:43
Those are competitive times up and down.
Joey Logue was pretty similar. Guy could do it all from the 200 up.
DeleteBrehm's 800 win wasn't that fast and was controversial, his range was more 1600/3200.
DeleteWhy am I getting censored? All I said was making excuses for Endress isn't right. He didn't run 47/1:49/4:09. This isn't about could of, it's about did.
DeleteMaking excuses for Endress is a joke, this is based on what guys did, not what they could have done. That'd be like discounting Magaha's one freakish 1:48 800 at an obscure meet that he didn't match again even in college. Speaking of Magaha, he maybe the best PA middle distance guy but that's it, the hills at Hershey took out his speed, he never put down a big time 3200 and didn't win a state medal in anything but the one terrific 1600 gold and one top 10 in XC. Hoey had 4 state golds, an XC silver with a Hershey time that destroyed Magaha's and an 800 bronze. All his PR's match and beat Magaha. That range is way better.
DeleteSorry about that my friend, not intentional censorship just slipped through the cracks somehow
DeleteMy bad for overreacting but Forrest gets me cranky. He knows his stuff but sometimes uses it to make obscure unrealistic points.
DeleteSorry for being obscure and unrealistic. let me be more concrete with a comparison to help prove my point. lets look at indoor states btw Endress and Hoey.
DeleteEndress (2011): Mile Win 4:13.34; 800m Win 1:51.73
Hoey (2016): Mile Win 4:16.94; 800 4th place 1:53.47
i'm not sure how i can give a more precise comparison on a double for you between the two, because Endress was as fire as his hair.
As usual Forrest picks his facts to make his point. But the question wasn’t about just indoors and wasn’t about doubling at states. It was about range. Forrest omitted Hoey’s 4x400 silver medal, Endress can’t match him at that distance. And Hoey went 15:40 on Hershey the only time he ran there, Endress can’t match that either. Hoey also had injuries and missed indoors his junior year and a ton of training for outdoors his senior year. Yet he still managed to take a 3rd place in the outdoor 800 beating Endress PR, and a 4x400 gold. When he did get into top shape outdoors a few weeks after states he went 3:50.7 in the 1500, which is better than anything Endress did at any distance, as good as Endress was. Hoey results 400-5000 are better than Endress real and hypothetical results.
DeleteForrest Kentwell has left a new comment on your post "Mid-Week Call and Response":
Deletei'm extremely confused by your statement about "facts," since you also used 'facts' to prove your point...
analysis is the way in which one interpret's facts.
Now, i was looking at the facts of indoor, and yes i agree hoey was apart of a strong 4x4 relay (we're unsure of his split, unless you'd like to provide it), but like i stated above Endress split 48 flat with his strong 4x4 team with Gehret and Nodolsky a few times his junior year, so i would say that Endress and Hoey match well at the 400m distance.
secondly, times at Hershey (or any XC course) are difficult to look at, since the conditions can be so different, which is why i was looking at how all 4 of the top 4 runners in 2011 went to Nationals as individuals, so i was trying to show how strong of a year it was despite Endress' time being a 15:53 to Hoey's 15:40. i don't mean to say that Hoey is a bad XC runner, but i personally think the 2011 year was slightly stronger up front than the 2015 year, but i do believe it's very close, as Jake Brophy ran extremely well at Nationals, and Kent Hall qualified for NXN. DTW also qualified as a team, but none of them would have made it as individuals. So if you look at that year there were 9 runners in AAA under 16:00 and 6 at 15:53 or better, which (by your current logic of just XC times on courses) there would have been 6 individuals from PA to go to nationals that year, which we didn't see happen.
It's interesting for the 800 that you use Hoey's (non doubled) 800 PR as better than Endress' (because it's just barely faster and Endress did his indoors and on the double so...) i'd take Endress 800m in high school over Hoey for sure.
Furthermore, i used indoor as a comparison, because there are no hypotheticals since both of them were healthy all indoors both years, which for me makes it the easiest way to compare their talents. training very far into the summer isn't something Endress did, so i agree that the 3.50.07 1500m is a very impressive time (and certainly better than Endress in the 1500-mile distance outdoors), but it's not something Endress ever ran, which makes it difficult for comparison btw the two. i would say we could point towards outdoors both of their junior years when Endress ran 4:15.00/1:53.34 and Hoey ran 4:11.47. so i think overall in the Mile/1500m distance we can certainly agree they Hoey has the edge.
so looking back at Hoey's 5k results i am more impressed with his XC career than i had recalled, but i still would give the edge to Endress to have him on my team when i'm thinking of someone dabbling at distances 400-5k, but i do appreciate your analysis :)
- ForrestCRN
I'll take Hoey in this one. Also thinking some of the all-timers like Springer, Russell, and James belong in the discussion. Anyone know their 400 times?
DeleteTo summarize Endress vs Hoey:
Delete400 – they both probably have sub 50 splits but Hoey’s range was used to help his team earn a silver indoors, and gold outdoors
800 – Hoey has 1:51.5, Endress 1:51.7
1500/1600 – Hoey has a 4:07 to Endress 4:12
3200 – Hoey has a 9:06 as a sophomore, Endress never really ran this one
5000 – Hoey has a state 2nd place in 15:40, Endress has a state 2nd place in 15:54
Just have a draft for best range, pick a top 5, give 5 points for 1st down to 1 for 5th. Add them up, end of argument.
DeleteMy 5 best range would be:
Russell
Hoey
Magaha
Brehm
Ritz
Because I have the benefit of being in front of a computer here's a couple #s to help clarify some points ...
ReplyDeleteSam Ritz ran 9:10.4h for 3200m at the November Henderson Invite. I believe he defeated sophomore Nick Dahl and Kevin James in the race, both of which ended up sub 9 guys in the spring. Ritz also beat John Lewis head to head in an 800 that season at the same track in June. Lewis went on to win Outdoor Nationals.
Hoey has a gold (outdoors) and a silver (indoors) in the 4x4. Abington just edged them out indoors. Don't think McLemore ran anchor. Also, in Hoey's Malvern Prep days he ran 9:09 for a full two miles (9:05e). That was as a sophomore.
Endress one of the best doublers we've seen. No doubt. If I'm picking one guy to run 3 events in a day, he's near the top of my list. He also had a lot of "what ifs" health wise. But by PRs, Hoey has faster PRs in the 800, 1600/Mile, 3200/2 Mile and 5k. Same place at states in XC, but Endress had a better regional finish. The 4x4 stuff has been discussed for him, Endress also ran on some strong 4x4s, especially in the Brady Gehret days.
Milligan's 3200 best is 9:26 at Shippensburg's Invite in early spring (won by 11 seconds). Also won the 800 (1:57) on the same day over Wisner.
American record in the mile is 3:46.91 from Webb.
I think it's interesting to see each person's interpretation of "range". I don't want to speak for anyone obviously, but some people appear to think of it as literally all events (200-XC), some people think of it as distance specific (plus the 400), some people think of it as who could do the most on one day. It's cool to see each person's opinions and thanks to everybody for contributing.
A couple other guys who have been fun but aren't quite superstars. Will Cather and Liam Conway were a couple of rare underclassmen who were able to qualify for indoor states in the 800, Mile and 3k. Very cool.
Keep it going!
-train
P.S. Second question in the UFC has been posted.
Germantown Friends just balled out in the DMR with a 10:23.15!
ReplyDeletedo we have splits from Dahl?
Deletewhere is UFC #2?????? I can't find it anywhere
ReplyDeleteClaig x Claig ended up finding the post. It was set up so it would show in the archive as if it was posted December 25, 2015 (what the hint was getting at)
DeleteConway and Hontz are probably the top guys not have a medal right now. I'd say Conway gets it first, Hontz runs some good times but peaks at the wrong time, Rustin doesn't have a lot of experience at that level.
ReplyDeleteWell Carlisle just put the state on notice ...
ReplyDeleteNot sure if this was already said, but I think that Dom Peretta has extremely great range. His PRs are; 49.68 for the 400m, 1:50.10 for 800m, 4:11.53 for the mile, 9:39 for the 3200m (He usually didn't run this event, and 16:05 for the 5000m. Other than John Lewis, he has the fastest 800m PR of all of he names that were mentioned. His mile obviously won him three state titles, and his 400m would have medaled at states.
ReplyDelete^ That's a really good one that was missed in the discussions. but lacking a bit at the 3200/5K distance. He's like a Magaha/Ritz, although Magaha had a nice 5K on that flat Lehigh track.
Delete